Saturday, 9th August 1913 Conductor Also Swears Epps Boy Was Not on Car With Mary Phagan

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W. T. Hollis, of 16 Western avenue, the conductor on the English avenue car on which Mary Phagan rode to town on the day she was murdered, followed the motorman on the stand.

He also declared that the girl was not accompanied by a boy and that she did not get off at Forsyth and Marietta streets where he left the car. He also declared that she was not accompanied by any boy answering the description of George Epps, but that a little girl was with her.

Hollis corroborated the testimony of the motorman in practically every detail as to time and other features up to the moment when he was relieved at Forsyth and Marietta and left the car.

Further than that the witness declared that there were only a few passengers on the car that trip and that he noted the girl's appearance as she had often ridden with him on the way to the factory in the mornings. He said he did not know her name until after the murder, when he found out she was the one who had been killed.

Attorney Frank A. Hooper, who is aiding the state in the case, took up the cross-examination.

"Did you see the girl's body?"

"Yes, a newspaper man found out that I was the conductor on whose car she had come to town and he took me to see if I could identify the body."

"Did you have any trouble in doing so?"

"No, I knew her at once."

"Have you any recollection of a tow-headed boy getting on the car?" asked Mr. Hooper, referring to Epps.

"No."

"Did Mary Phagan get on at Lindsay street?"

"Yes."

"Do you remember the Epps boy getting on at any other street?"

"No, I have not."

"When you took up the girl's car fare was anyone with her?"

"No."

"Did you mean a while ago that you keep the rules of the company and never reach a given point ahead of or behind time?"

"It's not against the rules to get there behind time," replied the conductor.

"But it is against the rules to get there ahead of time, isn't it?"

"Yes.."

"Do you always look at your watch when you pass every important point?"

"We are supposed to."

"Don't you fail to do a lot of things you are supposed to?"

The witness admitted that such might occasionally be the case. He was then excused.

N. V. Darley Denies Testimony Given by Conley and Dalton

N. V. Darley, general manager of the National Pencil factory, who has already been used as a witness for the prosecution, was called to the stand for the defense following the pattern maker's department.

He was examined by Mr. Arnold.

"You are the general manager of the pencil factory, aren't you?"

"Yes."

"Looking from a point of ground plan, isn't this a correct model of the pencil plant?"

"Yes."

Darley then described various furniture and fixtures in the basement and two floors depicted in the model.

Plain View of Stairway.

"If a body fell down the chute that runs from the first floor to the basement, how far would it land from the spot at which Mary Phagan's body was found?"

"About thirty or forty feet."

"What kind of a view has a man of the stairway if he sits in Frank's office?"

"Plain view."

"Suppose the safe door is open in Frank's office, what view can a person from the outside have into the inner office?"

"Practically none unless they get up close."

"Was there a lounge or bed in the entire pencil factory?"

"No."

"Is there a chair in the metal room?"

"No."

"Nothing but machinery and stock."

"That's all."

"Did you see the spot where Conley says he found the body in the metal room?"

"Yes."

"Did you know Mary Phagan?"

"No."

"What time did you leave the factory on May 26?"

"At 9 o'clock that morning."

"If Jim Conley says, then, about 11 o'clock, he is lying?"

"Yes."

Gives Conley the Lie.

"If he says you came down before Holloway, he is also lying?"

"Yes."

"With whom did you leave the factory?"

"Leo Frank."

"Did you see Conley that day?"

"No."

"Do you know him?"

"Yes."

"Did you ever jolly with him?"

"No. I used to kick him whenever I caught him loafing."

"Did you know a girl named Daisy Hopkins?"

"No, but when I saw her this morning, I remembered her face."

"Did you ever see this man Dalton?"

"Not to my knowledge."

"Was Schiff always in the office on Saturdays?"

"I remember only a few times when he was not."

"Did Frank have anything to do with discharging the help or employing it?"

"No."

"This man Dalton testified he saw a negro nightwatchman at the factory in September. Is this correct?"

No Negro Watchman There.

"There was no colored nightwatchman at the factory until we employed this man Newt Lee three weeks before the murder."

"Did you see Conley on Monday, 28?"

"Yes."

"What was his appearance?"

"He appeared nervous and would not look up at me when I spoke to him."

"Did his appearance cause suspicion?"

"Yes, and I told Holloway to keep an eye on him."

Objection by Solicitor Dorsey on this answer was sustained.

"What did he do Tuesday?"

"Worked in his usual way."

"He was familiar with every part of the building?"

"Yes."

"Did you ever give him any instructions as to what should be done on Saturdays?"

"Yes, I told him to knock off at 12 noon."

"Did you permit anyone of the help to stay there after 12 o'clock on Saturdays?"

"None of the negroes stayed to my knowledge."

Cross-Examination Begins.

Here the cross-examination was begun by the solicitor.

"Mr. Darley, did you make any contribution to the defense of Frank?"

"No."

"Did you know anything of Daisy Hopkins' general character?"

"No."

"Do you know that the chute on the first floor was nailed up Monday?"

"It was not nailed the first time I saw it."

"When did you first see it?"

"I do not recall exactly, but it must have been when the insurance men ordered the general clean up."

"If anyone had shot a corpse down the chute, wouldn't he have found a world of boxes and crates at the mouth, behind which the body could have been hidden indefinitely?"

"Yes."

"So far as you know, Frank could have dismissed the night watchman and could have put Conley to watching the front door for him?"

"I wasn't there that afternoon."

"There'd be no reason to have hascoline on the floors, would there?"

"No business reason."

Would Be Carelessness.

"Then, if there would be no business reason, it would be carelessness, wouldn't it?"

"Yes."

"Do you undertake to say that this model is accurate in measurements and perspective?"

"So far as I can remember."

Arnold resumed the direct examination.

"Was there any water on the floor where Jim Conley says the body was found in the metal room?"

"I noticed none."

"If a spot of blood from a mouse got on the floor two years ago it would still be there, wouldn't it?"

"I suppose so."

Dorsey's objection to this question and answer was sustained.

Dorsey resumed the cross-examination.

"You say the state of blood was not sufficient to excite comment?"

"Not that particular spot on the metal room."

"Did you not report its discovery to the police?"

"Yes."

"To whom did you first report Conley's nervousness?"

"Harry Scott, I think."

PAGE 3, COLUMN 1

Civil Engineer and Photographer Tell of Making Plats and Photos

Ira U. Kauffman, civil engineer, who had been employed by the defense to make drawings of the Selig home at 68 East Georgia avenue, where Frank and his wife lived, and also of the National Pencil factory, followed the street car conductor on the stand.

Kauffman testified that he made the plats of the Selig home on Tuesday of this week. The plats were shown to the jury.

"Could you stand in the kitchen and see the mirror in the dining room?" asked Mr. Arnold.

"It is impossible to see the mirror from the kitchen."

"Why?"

"Because of a partition there."

"Could you see any part of the mirror?"

"Only a small portion."

Albert Mc Night, husband of the Seligs' cook, had previously stated that he stood in the kitchen and saw by the reflection of Leo Frank in the mirror that he was sitting at the dinner table on that Saturday and was not eating.

"Have you drawn a plat of East Georgia avenue and Washington street?"

"Yes."

"How far is it from the home to Washington street?"

"175 feet."

"To Pulliam street?"

"271 feet."

"Have you made detailed drawings of the pencil factory?"

"Yes."

Plats Explained to Jury.

The plats of the factory were then explained to the jury.

The civil engineer then asserted that the distance between the elevator shaft and the spot where the body was found was 136 feet, and that from the elevator shaft to the trash pile was eighty feet.

He also stated on being questioned that from the spot where Newt Lee claims to have seen Mary Phagan's body it was possible to see part of it, and also that a man standing across the street from the pencil factory on Forsyth street could see men standing around Frank's desk on the second floor. He was excused at 11:40 and the jury was allowed a short recess.

Adams on Stand.

Following the recess after Civil Engineer Ira Kauffman was excused from the stand, the defense tendered in evidence the plats and drawings of the Selig home and of the factory, and then offered a number of pictures, made by J. Q. Adams, a photographer, who was put on the stand to explain them. No objection was made by the state to any of the articles going in as evidence.

Adams swore, as Kauffman had done, that a person could not stand in the kitchen of Emil Selig and see the mirror in the dining room, and his pictures apparently bore this out.

Attorney Reuben Arnold went carefully over the pictures with the jury and by the aid of the photographer, explained every detail about them.

PAGE 3, COLUMN 1

Harry Scott and "Boots" Rogers Recalled to Stand by the State

When court convened Friday morning Harry Scott, Pinkerton detective, engaged by the defense in the Phagan case, was recalled to the stand by the state and asked how long it took Jim Conley, the negro sweeper, to write a copy of one of the murder notes when it was read off to him and not dictated word for word.

The detective declared that the negro had taken about three or four minutes for this.

"Boots" Rogers was next called and asked one question about the condition of the basement. Rogers is the ex-county policeman in whose car the police answered Newt Lee's call the morning of the murder. His testimony Friday was in regard to the insanitary condition of the basement.

After a call for George Epps, the little newsie who swore to riding to town on April 26 with Mary Phagan, had gone unanswered, the defense called its first witness of the day, Daisy Hopkins.

PAGE 3, COLUMN 3

MODEL OF FACTORY ATTACKED BY SOLICITOR

Photo by Francis E. Price, Staff Photographer.

Under cross-examination, T. H. Willett, who made the above paper model, which was introduced by the defense, admitted that in many ways it was not a correct representation of the factory. It shows the basement where Mary Phagan's body was found, ground floor where Jim Conley sat, and second floor, Frank's office in front and in rear machine room where state says she was killed.

PAGE 3, COLUMN 3

Hinchey Tells of Seeing Frank On Car on Day of the Murder

H. J. Hinchey, of 391 Peachtree street, a business acquaintance of Leo Frank, and manager of the South Atlantic Blow Pipe company, was put upon the stand by the defense. He stated having seen Frank on the murder date as the superintendent rode into town on a Washington street trolley car, meeting him at Washington and Hunter streets.

He was questioned by Mr. Arnold.

"Do you recollect April 26, Memorial day?"

"Yes."

"Did you see Leo Frank that day?"

"Yes."

"Where?"

"Near the capitol."

"Was he on foot or riding?"

"He was aboard a trolley car."

"Were you on foot?"

"No, I was driving an automobile."

"Did you speak to him?"

"No."

"What time was it?"

"Between 2 o'clock and 2:15."

Tried to Fix Time.

"How did you judge the time?"

"When the newspapers first published the tragedy, I tried to determine the time by making a trip by automobile in the same manner my wife and I and friends had ridden on the day we saw Mr. Frank. We drove from home to various points of the city, as we had done on the 26th, and reached Hunter and Washington streets at five minutes past 1 o'clock."

"What were the condition of the streets on Memorial day?"

"The streets were crowded, and we drove to several street corners down town, trying to get a point from which we could view the parade. We were finally forced to go down East Mitchell street, and the crowds were so dense we came near colliding with another car. I saw Mr. Frank on a passing trolley. He sat on a seat near the front."

"How did you know it was Frank on the car?"

"I had been acquainted with him through business dealings."

"What was your interest in him?"

"When I read in the papers about the murder in the pencil factory, I naturally thought of Mr. Frank, as he was superintendent of the plant."

The cross examination was then begun by Mr. Hooper.

"How many times did you see him on that trip?"

"Only once."

"He was inside the car?"

"Yes."

"You were manipulating the levers of your automobile?"

"Yes."

"Trying to keep from accidents?"

"Yes."

"There was nothing extraordinary to cause you to notice Frank in particular?"

"No, except for the fact that I had had business dealings with him."

"Did you see anybody else on the trip that you recognized?"

"No."

Visited Frank in Jail.

"How many times have you been to see Frank in jail?"

"Only once."

"Did you discuss this matter with him?"

"Yes."

"Why did you mention it?"

"I just wanted to inform him of the fact I had seen him that day."

"Was that before or after the inquest?"

"Afterwards."

"Whom did you first tell of having seen Frank?"

"Frank himself."

"What was the necessity of you going over the maneuver of your automobile trip?"

"After I knew I was to be subpoenaed as a witness I decided to check up on the time."

"You found out you were to be a witness and then you visited him in jail?"

"No."

"Who informed you that you were to be a witness?"

"Leonard Haas."

"Why did you go to see Frank?"

"Because I was interested in his case."

"You have been a witness in cases before, haven't you?"

"Yes, once in Columbus."

"Did Frank see you on the 26th?"

"No, for I asked him."

The witness was then excused.

PAGE 3, COLUMN 3

Epps Boy Not With Mary Phagan, Declares Street Car Motorman

W. M. Mathews, of 459 Lee street, car motorman who declares that Mary Phagan rode to town on his car on April 26, followed Daisy Hopkins on the stand.

Mathews gave a new turn to the theory of the girl's actions of that day by declaring that she rode to Broad and Hunter streets before getting off with another girl who was with her, and also by saying that he did not see George Epps on the car with her.

In answer to questions the motorman asserted that Mary Phagan got on his car at Lindsay street at about 10 minutes to 12 and got off at Hunter and Broad at 10 minutes after 12, the time that Monteen Stover says she left the factory and after the time that, according to the state's theory, Mary Phagan was killed

"What time does your car reach Forsyth and Marietta streets?"

"It is due there at 12:07 1-2."

"Was it on time that day?"

"It was."

"Where did the girl get off?"

"At Hunter and Broad."

"At what time?"

"At just about 12:10, because it takes from 2 1-2 to 3 minutes to go through the congested part of town from Forsyth and Marietta to Hunter and Broad."

"Go ahead."

"Well, when my car reached Forsyth and Marietta I was relieved by another man and went in and took a seat and rode to Whitehall and Mitchell streets. I sat on a seat directly back of Mary Phagan and another girl, who was with her, but whose name I do not know."

"Did she and this girl get off together or not?"

"They got off together and walked together towards Forsyth street on Hunter."

Epps Boy Not With Her.

"Was there a little boy with her?"

"No, not when she got on at Lindsay street, not when I sat behind her in the car and not when she got off."

"Did you see a boy, George Epps, get on the car?"

"No, I did not."

"Didn't you tell L. P. Whitfield, a Pinkerton detective working on this case, that you might have run to own three or four minutes ahead of your schedule?" asked Solicitor Dorsey.

"No, I never said that."

"Are you sure?"

"Yes; positive."

"Where did George Epps get on the car?"

"I couldn't tell you; I never saw him."

"Why did you happen to notice Mary Phagan so particularly? Was she a very pretty girl or not?"

"Well, she was certainly not ugly," replied the motorman.

"Couldn't a person get off the car at Forsyth and Marietta and reach the National Pencil factory quicker by walking down Forsyth than by riding around to Hunter and Broad?"

"It would take about as long to go either way."

"How does it happen that you remember seeing Mary Phagan particularly and know when she got off that day, when there were hundreds of other people who rode with you during the day?"

"Well, when I was relieved at Forsyth and Marietta I came in and sat down behind her and I had a picture in my pocket which I remember taking out and showing her, and we talked about it."

Could Not Identify Dress.

Mathews was then asked to describe the girl's dress, but could not do so, further than to say she had on some sort of a light colored dress. When shown her clothes he stated that he thought the dress was about that color, but that he could not swear that it was the same one she had worn that day.

"I was looking at the girl, not the dress," Mathews explained naively.

"Well, you didn't see George Epps on the car?"

"No."

"Would you say he was not on the car."

"I can't say about that; I didn't see him, if he was."

Mr. Dorsey concluded and Mr. Arnold then asked the witness several questions.

"When did you hear of the murder?"

"Sunday morning about 6 o'clock."

"Did you see her body?"

"Yes, at the undertaker's, about 6 o'clock that evening."

"Were you certain that she was the girl that rode with you?"

"Yes, I was positive."

Mathews was then excused.

PAGE 3, COLUMN 6

Witness Admits Discrepancies In Model of Pencil Factory

T. H. Willet, a pattern maker, who built the model of the pencil factory, was next called by the defense. Under the cross-examination of Mr. Hooper he frequently admitted discrepancies in the pasteboard structure submitted by Frank's counsel.

"What is your occupation?" he was asked by Mr. Arnold.

"Pattern maker."

"Did you make an inspection of the National Pencil factory?"

"Yes."

"In making this model, as to its dimensions and proportions, you have followed exact figures of blue prints?"

"Yes."

Under Cross-examination.

He was then cross-examined by Mr. Hooper.

"You do not know whether this is a correct representation or not?"

"It was made from the figures given me."

"Did you make measurements or not?"

"No."

"Did you see the factory?"

"I saw the front end."

"Are these parts in the basement correct?"

"I made them so they would be plain to view."

"You made them incorrect, then, so they would be plain to view?"

"I made them so they would be to view."

"Weren't these front doors made to exaggerate true conditions?"

"I made them according to the blue prints given me."

"Didn't you leave out everything on the southern side of the basement?"

The witness nodded an answer.

"Would you tell the jury that these windows are accurate?"

"No."

"Do you pretend to say these windows in the second floor are correct, too?"

"I don't know."

Discrepancies Admitted.

"Somebody else put these windows there, didn't they?"

"I didn't."

"What about the stairway? Is it correct?"

"It is according to the blue prints."

"This hole in the trap door isn't in proportion to the blue prints, is it?"

"I didn't measure it?"

"So, in question of measurements, that trap door isn't correct as to the trap door?"

"No."

Mr. Arnold again took the witness on direct examination.

"On what plans was this model built, ground or height?"

"Ground plans."

"The model is magnified thrice from the blue print, isn't it?"

"Yes."

"Didn't you do your best to conform with the blue prints?"

"Yes."

"Did you have instructions from anyone to make the model false to the prints?"

"No."